Part IV: Ms Sylvia Chen Ms Gan Su-lin

SYLVIA: Walking is way past me now. On wobbly grounds you know, I can’t take it. SU-LIN: Swiss train. Now if KTM train carriages were like this, I would have happily travelled the train a lot more. SYLVIA: 1st class train. SU-LIN: 1st class cabin! INTERVIEWER: It’s similar isn’t it? SYLVIA: Yes. INTERVIEWER: And I do remember vaguely that the 1st class carriages were, they were nice and they were warm, I mean warm tones right. SYLVIA: Yes. Orangey inside. INTERVIEWER: Orangey yeah. SU-LIN: That is a loo. INTERVIEWER: Ah, that’s nice. SU-LIN: So if the KTM loos were like that, I’m sure I would have gone on the train a lot more often. SYLVIA: The next time you can buy a 2nd class ticket and I can buy a 1st class ticket and you can come and examine my room. SU-LIN: Okay. INTERVIEWER: You can still take the train from Woodlands now right, if you want to. SYLVIA: No, no, no, no you can only take from Woodlands. INTERVIEWER: I mean yeah, but the trains still come into Singapore into Woodlands right. SYLVIA: Yeah only Woodlands. Terminal is in Woodlands. And to start your journey it’s also Woodlands. SU-LIN: But being a very well-trained pragmatic Singaporean, if you just take it across the Causeway in Johor you pay in Ringgit. INTERVIEWER: Clever. SYLVIA: At one time when Tanjong Pagar was still open, it was such a nuisance because you had to take the train from Tanjong Pagar or Johor Bahru. You cannot alight in Woodlands. You cannot board the train in Woodlands, but you can alight at Woodlands. INTERVIEWER: Oh, that’s strange. SYLVIA: Yes, you can alight at Woodlands, or Tanjong Pagar. But to get to Malaysia it has to be Tanjong Pagar or Johor Bahru. Until Tanjong Pagar closed and everything is at Woodlands now. INTERVIEWER: So did you ever take it from Woodlands? SYLVIA: Yes, yes. INTERVIEWER: Take the train from Woodlands to Kajang. SYLVIA: To Kajang, yes. INTERVIEWER: Was it different? No again I’m sure it was different in a sense that it’s more modern. SYLVIA: Yes more modern than Tanjong Pagar. Tanjong Pagar is like you know, it’s an, like I said antiquated. It’s something that looks nice but, it’s very drabby inside if you actually want to know. Don’t you think so? I think they have not really cleaned up that place properly and it’s still drabby looking and you know, dingy. INTERVIEWER: But did you appreciate the architecture at least? SYLVIA: Yes only the architecture. INTERVIEWER: The murals SYLVIA: And even the one at KL even. INTERVIEWER: Ah yes I’ve heard. I’ve heard many good things about the architecture. SYLVIA: Yes and that’s beautiful. I mean that’s the only thing. But you know the KL station is brighter. But the Singapore station I think is maybe, maybe they are not letting enough lights in. SU-LIN: Yeah it’s quite dim. INTERVIEWER: It’s quite dim, okay. SU-LIN: Do you know what they are going to do with it? INTERVIEWER: This is the next question I’m actually going to ask you. No, as far as I know, and I should also not be quoted on this is that the decision is not yet been made about the corridor or the station. In terms of the corridor there have been some suggestions and also of course developers - you know the Bukit Timah area is prime land. SYLVIA: It’s narrow. INTERVIEWER: It’s narrow but it’s still land right. So there has been discussions on “oh should we turn it into a green corridor or should we turn it into a leisure area, should it be stayed the way it is, should we build condos?” Likewise with the Tanjong Pagar station, there has not been, I don’t think there has been a decision made on the station itself, as it what to do with it. They had a fashion show I think. Sorry? SYLVIA: I think there’s a restaurant there now. INTERVIEWER: Is there? Why don’t they still do some tours here and there? SU-LIN: Why don’t they rent it out for … INTERVIEWER: For events right? SU-LIN: For kind of high-end events. SYLVIA: And also there’s a new restaurant there, and it seems like the food is not so fantastic. SU-LIN: You know it’s kind of neat out there, because I was looking, this was a picture I had taken when I went after the tracks had all been removed. So where you see that grass there, that’s where the tracks used to be, between the platforms. INTERVIEWER: That’s a beautiful photograph. SU-LIN: And so when you look at that and you’re going, “Wouldn’t it be nice to turn it into a place where people could have picnics and just come?” INTERVIEWER: Yeah, this is a platform. These are the platforms. SU-LIN: Yeah these are the platforms. These are the platforms, both sides. INTERVIEWER: Su-lin I must say this is a beautiful picture. SU-LIN: Thanks! INTERVIEWER: Very nice. Lovely textures. You’ve got the warmth of the wood very nicely and you contrast that, you see the green in the background? Nice. I’m getting distracted. SU-LIN: But I would love for them to conserve that heritage. I can certainly appreciate that the land is precious, the land is scarce, we need to develop. But can that development come up around the heritage. INTERVIEWER: So you would like to see preservation and conservation. Is that what you meant. SU-LIN: I think if we are creative enough there’s no reason why we cannot develop it without destroying what is already there. INTERVIEWER: Right. SU-LIN: Can we work around it, can we incorporate it into a new design. INTERVIEWER: And you mean this for both the station as well as the corridor, the railway corridor? SU-LIN: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay Madam Chen, what’s your opinion? What do you think they should do for the railway corridor and or the station? SYLVIA: Really I have no comments on that. INTERVIEWER: What would you like to see? Let’s try the station, you know you have, what would you like to see the station become? You know there has been a various things that have been done to conservation buildings in Singapore. They’ve usually been commercialised, sometimes they become museums. If you had a choice, what would you like to see? SYLVIA: Turn into a museum, it would be lovely. INTERVIEWER: A museum? SYLVIA: Yes. Because the architecture there is worth something to look at, and turning it into a museum would be a double whammer for them. SU-LIN: If we could keep some of that space, where you are able to then have permanent exhibits. I mean there’s a lot of history. Can we put it on display? SYLVIA: He could use all the railway histories on it. INTERVIEWER: The industrial history right. Singapore’s industrial past. I think that would be a great idea as well. SU-LIN: I mean if they can build condominiums above the shopping malls, why can’t they build something around this? INTERVIEWER: Well you know structures and all that. But I’m sure when there’s a will, there’s a way when it comes to architecture and conservation, like the King’s Cross St Pancras station for example. I figured that there’s probably potential there. SYLVIA: You know along the corridor, what it could also do is make it like sort of a, cycling park? SU-LIN: Oh okay, he’s recording I shan’t make nasty comments. SYLVIA: Keep them off the road! I mean, it’s nice place for them. INTERVIEWER: Oh you mean as a cycling track! So all the way up from Tanjong Pagar up to there. Well I mean yes, some people have mentioned that rather than developing it, it should become like a nature park. So it becomes part of the whole Singapore. They are trying to build this green belt right, a cycling belt. SYLVIA: Yes. SU-LIN: It’s these networks. INTERVIEWER: Network, yes. SU-LIN: The park connectors. INTERVIEWER: So some people have said that this could become part of the park connectors. SYLVIA: Yeah the connectors, the connectors. SU-LIN: You know we just spent, no down across the BKE [Bukit Timah Expressway] they’re building this eco bridge, millions of dollars that the animals can go from one side to another. SYLVIA: Animals can go from one side to another. SU-LIN: That is great. We already the corridor. So it would be very, very ironic if we spend these millions of dollars building an eco bridge and we destroy this natural bridge. INTERVIEWER: What is already there, natural bridge in between areas, yes. Very good point SU-LIN: It’s very daft, it’s absolutely daft. INTERVIEWER: Well on that note, do you have any final comments for this, for this interview? Or for posterity? SYLVIA: Maybe for the younger ones, not for this old lady. SU-LIN: What? INTERVIEWER: Any final comments? SU-LIN: I don’t know, now you’ve got me all keen to ride the train again. INTERVIEWER: So all these memories actually want to make you think, want to experience it all again? SU-LIN: Yeah, yeah. But you know at my current age I’m not sure I want to do the night train anymore. SYLVIA: Riding on the train, even in the daytime now is not such a drag as it was before. It’s because you don’t hear the – all that noise that you know. SU-LIN: The air-conditioning makes a difference. SYLVIA: Yeah the air-conditioning, double panelling of the windows, it’s a pleasurable ride. INTERVIEWER: But do you think it takes away from the experience? SYLVIA: Oh you still hear the noise of the tracks, you do, you do. INTERVIEWER: Right. SYLVIA: But you just don’t hear it’s [dent?] loudly? SU-LIN: No but it’s different, it’s very different. INTERVIEWER: And you prefer it, or do you? SYLVIA: I prefer it this way. INTERVIEWER: Right. Just checking. SU-LIN: Yeah no it’s very different. SYLVIA: That reminds me of you know when we were taking the train in UK, and Edinburgh and all that. You know you don’t really hear the “chugga chugga, chugga chugga”. INTERVIEWER: Yes, yes, yes. SYLVIA: It’s just a nice pleasurable sound that you are on the train, you can’t hear. You know that you are on the train with the swerving of the train and the little peddling noise that the train makes, not that loud ones that we used to get before. And not that every time you get to a station it’s like screeching, everybody is screeching and you peep out of the window and it’s everybody running all over, screaming and all that. INTERVIEWER: Screaming? SYLVIA: Yeah you know. SU-LIN: Shouting. SYLVIA: And you know you get people saying farewell to you and one person getting on the train and there are about 10 people saying goodbye to you, coming up to the train to say goodbye to you. INTERVIEWER: To the window as well. SU-LIN: Kampung [village] farewell. SYLVIA: No in your carriage. But now they say goodbye, out the platform. INTERVIEWER: I guess it must make life easier for the KTM staff. SYLVIA: Yes. SU-LIN: No, I’m old fashioned. INTERVIEWER: You like that? SU-LIN: I think I miss the “woo woo! Chugga chugga chugga”. SYLVIA: You still hear that, but muffled. SU-LIN: No now the train whistle just goes “woo”. INTERVIEWER: I need to, I’m sorry to digress but when you took the train in the ’50s, was it diesel engine or? SYLVIA: Diesel, diesel. INTERVIEWER: So you never experienced the cold fired steam engine. SYLVIA: No, no, no, no. Yes the early early ones. INTERVIEWER: The early early ones? SYLVIA: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And we used to see the, when you get off at certain station and if they stop long enough, that would allow us to go off and watch, get to the head of the train and you see them shovelling coal. Yes. SU-LIN: When we took the train was it … SYLVIA: No, no, no. It was diesel by then. INTERVIEWER: This must have been the ’50s right. SYLVIA: Yes the early ’50s. SU-LIN: That’d be so cool. INTERVIEWER: It is, it was. There was these steam powered … SYLVIA: They get to a station, sometimes in some stations they stop 20 min, half an hour, and that would allow us to just go in, and we watch them shovelling. SU-LIN: Shovelling, okay. Shovelling coal. SYLVIA: Yes. SU-LIN: Wow. INTERVIEWER: Was there SYLVIA: I think it’s coal. INTERVIEWER: Was it sotty? Do you remember the soot there? SYLVIA: Yes. INTERVIEWER: And then did it get onto your clothes? SYLVIA: Yes! INTERVIEWER: This corroborates with another memory, that we, that I did. SU-LIN: That someone else recollects. INTERVIEWER: Yes. He’s a couple of years older, Daniel Mong, and he remembers the soot. SYLVIA: The soot yes. INTERVIEWER: Yeah because the trains were open air. SU-LIN: Okay. INTERVIEWER: So as the train went the soot would get in. SYLVIA: The window up and down up and down. INTERVIEWER: So it would get into the carriage and get into everybody. SYLVIA: When it stops and then you just see all that. INTERVIEWER: The plumes right. SYLVIA: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Wow. So yeah SU-LIN: But it’s so cool. INTERVIEWER: It’s very cool. SU-LIN: And you know it’s kind of sad that, actually I feel very privileged because I think, I am from a generation that experienced the waning old world. INTERVIEWER: Yes. SU-LIN: And a lot of the new world. I mean one classic example of that is when I am from a generation that remembers the manual typewriter. And then we moved on to word processors. INTERVIEWER: Yes. SU-LIN: We need at least computers that were blazing fast at 33 megahertz or clock speed or something, you know. INTERVIEWER: I remember that too. SU-LIN: So we remember some of that old world. And for me that train journey is part of that old world, which kids today, they will not know. Not at the risk of clinging to the past that loses its relevance, you know as in modernity. But there are important parallels, you don’t discard everything. INTERVIEWER: Yes. SU-LIN: And guess maybe that’s why I look at the train station, I look at the rail corridor, and say what can we do? Because if we don’t work around it, you’ll never get it back. You’ll never get it back. And the only thing that we will have eventually down the road is lost and regret. INTERVIEWER: Excellent. So I think that’s an excellent place to finish the interview. Thank you both very, very much for some wonderful, wonderful memories. It’s excellent. Thank you.